Exclusive: Red Bull secure an engine for 2016

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Probably the biggest F1 controversy for a number of years has finally ended. Having cancelled their engine contract for 2016 with Renault without a replacement partner, Red Bull Racing have been accused of ‘jumping from an airplane and trying to buy a parachute on the way down.’ This has led to the widely held view that Red Bull Racing could actually withdraw from Formula One at the end of this year.

The bitterness that has been expressed between Renault and RBR senior personnel has led most observers to believe that the relationship is terminal. And when the normally sanguine Adrian Newey states that, “Unfortunately, our relationship with Renault is pretty terminal — there’s been too much of a marriage breakdown, so we have no engine,” then the only conclusion to be drawn is  – that’s that.

However, TJ13 can reveal Red Bull Racing will not be leaving Formula One in 2016. They have in fact tonight secured an engine to power the RB12 at what for many is the 11th hour and 59th minute. Then again, given TJ13’s exclusive reporting on the new engine facility constructed by Red Bull Racing in building 9 at their HQ, maybe this is not so big a surprise.

RBR will be running the Renault 12 token upgraded engine in Brazil, having passed on using it in both Austin and Mexico. This power unit upgrade has been the result of a joint effort between Renault and the Red Bull appointed consultant Mario Illien. TJ13 has learned that the reason Red Bull have refused to run this PU at the past two races is because no agreement on joint intellectual property had been finalised. The deal is now done.

Mario Illien, the former Ilmor engine guru, has been working in the new Milton Keynes building 9 for over a year and assisting Renault in solving fundamental design flaws in their F1 power unit. Much of this revolves around the engine block.

The result is that Renault have agreed to manufacture and supply Red Bull Racing for the near future, the co-designed 12 token upgraded ICE, whilst Red Bull will supply their own ERS components for the F1 power unit.

Further, it has been agreed between the parties that Red Bull will be able to develop the ICE further in their building 9 complex, without reference to Renault, and that intellectual property of the base unit as it stands now, is jointly owned. Disagreements between Renault and RBR over the intellectual property of the ‘co-developed’ PU has been the reason RBR have been desperately seeking a temporary engine partner for 2016. These matters appear to be now resolved.

The Red Bull Racing power unit for 2016 is expected to be branded as Infiniti, should they and Renault-Nissan agree on this. If not, the engine development costs going forward will be met by Red Bull and another partner will be credited.

TJ13 has been informed that Red Bull Racing are already confident they will start the 2016 season with a revised version of the current Renault 12 token upgraded ICE, with a power unit producing in excess of a 40 BHP advantage.

Renault will now complete the acquisition of Lotus to run a ‘works team’ in 2016, and so let battle royal commence between the French F1 engine manufacturer maestro’s of the past 30 years versus the new kids on the block – who by the way said they were never going to be an F1 engine manufacturer.

Then again, when you’ve pissed off everyone else, ‘needs must’ – is the only conclusion.

As an aside, it may well be that the Red Bull engine solution now kills off the Jean Todt and Bernie Ecclestone’s idea of an independent F1 engine supplier. RBR are sorted, ‘crisis over.’

Red Bull’s 2016 PU: The pieces of the puzzle

 

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137 responses to “Exclusive: Red Bull secure an engine for 2016

  1. I love you guys.

    My guess is 2.0 of red bulls side of things is what they are really developing towards.

    If I had a second guess, Renault were the ones being quite stuffy over the IP issue. The other way around would mean red bull believed the entire PU was thier IP – not likely.

    I love you guys.

    • “Stuffy over IP issue”, if you own it, you own it. If the other guy has it, he bought it or stole it. Let’s look at who, historically, is more likely full of shit…hmmm? Who’s loud, angry, sulky, whiny, acts before they think and is without a 2016 PU? Red Bull gives you bull shit.

      • Let’s see, historically who’s shit at developing ERS systems. Is it Renault the most successful engine supplier in F1 or is it red bull the fizzy company? What’s that you say? It actually is Renault?

        Why would red bull want Renaults shitty ERS system when they can build their own much more competitive system themselves? Why do you think Honda wanted to work with red bull? Probably because after Renault got thier panties in a bunch about not owning the IP that red bull developed, red bull was ready to walk their in house ERS system through Hondas front door at a great price.

          • Care to provide a link for a Renault hybrid system that won a WCC?

            Red bull has 4 WCC’s attributed to their KERS, why doesn’t Renault?

          • “Technically” you still have not proved your statement, that it was all Red Bulls ERS system on the Renault engine. It seems strange that Red Bull has never publicly stated that it was their kers system not Renault’s. So why, if they built the last ERS (because they were better then Renault) did they not build the current systems?

          • My bad, you’re new to f1! Welcome. Did you just start following? This year or last? I’d love to fill you in on technical regulations regarding current PU components but there is this thing called the Internet.

            Anyway, welcome again!

        • I remember Red Bull’s battery fire. It would have been better if you cited your reference and then said “there are Red Bulls four kers championships, where are Renaults”; don’t you think?

          • Technically it’s 8 KERS championships, but who’s counting. Not Renault because you cannot actually count to ZERO.

            Keep dodging though, you’re up for the christian horner award!

            On the other hand though maybe you’re right. Perhaps it was RB being stuffy about wanting access to Renaults average ICE unit – and for that access to include IP rights so that they can use it as a baseline development platform going forward. I can see Renault not wanting to give up these rights because they will be beaten quite badly with their own ICE system – which will be an embarrassment – which makes sense they wont be calling their own team their own name next year.

            Still, we’re in the software era and drive-ability is crucial, drive-ability comes from the electric side of things for the most part and RB are looking set to again show major auto-manufactures how it’s actually done.

        • Ha Ha Ha, oh sonny you make me laugh with the childishness of your comments. I probably went to my first race before you were alive. How about you just post a link stating that the kers on the Renault is Red Bull’s. The way you talk it’s got to be simple, maybe on the Red Bull fanboy site is where you read it? Yell up from the basement and ask your Mother if she remembers you talking about it. Perhaps the article is in the bathroom, stuck to the centre fold of your Red Bull magazine.

      • Geez, such vitriol….The IP wasn’t surrounding the KERS system. it was the IP in relation to the engine development Mario Illien had performed when RBR placed him at Renault as a consultant. Rumor has it Renault said it was their IP as they owned the engine and Mario was only “consulting”. RBR said it was shared IP as it now forms the base engine from whihc they will develop the 2016 unit.

        Not that hard to understand really. The RBR “KERS” system will be a development of what they already have and the tech they already know. Again, they have likely been working on this with or without Renault for a long time knowing this was coming.

        • I just hope this is not bull shit &they will come out and say that are doing this to stop all the shit going about 

  2. So Honda won’t be the worst engine in F1?
    What if RBR win the championship???? Ferrari, Merc and Honda will quit F1?

    • ….well Ferrari wont and I don,t think Honda will either but of course Merc might, remember a number of years ago when they could not buy a win let alone win a championship threaten to take their “bat and ball” and go home, German sooks!!!!

  3. if it’s true then all i can say is ‘nice one red bull’ lets get this show on the road. seems like red bull got their letter of apology from renault after all.

  4. So, Red Bull will have their own engine then, just like you fore-told months ago :).

    I can’t wait to see the headlines, “Illien gives Red Bull wings”, “Infiniti-Red Bull fly past Honda” 😄

  5. Wow!
    What a scoop you guys at tj13.I hope your prediction is true and Red Bull have found that parachute.

  6. So wat about Torro Roso? Do they get this engine or work with Ferrari to learn their 2015 engine secrets and pass it on to Red Bull?

  7. Wow. So after all that Renault will let Red Bull build a faster version of their own engine, that will then out-perform their own works cars? I must say, I did not see that coming.

  8. Wow. You couldn’t write this shit – even though paradoxically you just did.

    So, let’s recap.

    Red Bull come off the back of competing for 5 consecutive WDC’s / WCC’s between ’09-’13, and won a higher no. of Grand Prix than some fans’ IQ level over that time.

    Then in ’14, they “only” win 3 races (and come a convincing 2nd) in the face of a team (Mercedes) getting the new regs really, really right. It happens, it’s F1. Yet after mere months not dominating – but winning – they start kicking Renault in the big, hairy ones.

    ’15 rolls around, it gets worse. Ferrari develop hard – as they usually do as regs mature – and Mercedes keeps their advantage. Ok, year 2 of new regs hasn’t worked out… but the boys from Milton Keynes are now curb stomping French foreheads on the metaphorical gutter of F1 less than 18 months after they’ve completed a period of success that is bettered only by the Ferrari/Brawn/Byrne/Martinelli/Schumacher era. No other era in F1 history has been as successful for so long.

    Now, after sending their personnel – like Adrian Newey – on propaganda missions that’s parallel the best efforts in WW2, after hacking and slashing their way around different PU manufacturers meeting rooms, they essentially “take” the Renault PU and become an engine manufacturer?

    Looks like Bernie’s subtle “500m exit fee” was better spent developing their own motors… no wait, taking Renault’s motors and developing from an existing base.

    I haven’t keep a super-close eye on these matters, so please let me know if I’ve missed anything. Given its been confirmed RBR were thinking VAG was coming to the party, and got the shits when Merc / Ferrari sent them packing, and were Dennis veto’d from a willing Honda (picked it), one can’t say this was all part of a deep, chess-like agenda that was played out by RBR’s power brokers.

    “Hey, Bernie’s serious.”
    “So?”
    “Nah man, like half-a-bill-plus serious”
    “And?”
    “And we’ve got a dead set contract, bro!”
    “Oh… fuck. Go ask the Germans and Italians.”
    “Nope, they still recall ’09-’13”
    “Oh right, yeah, that period. Go ask the Japs.”
    “Tried, Denno’s being a cunt.”
    “Lol, Ronny. Gotta love him.”
    “Soooo?”
    “It’s ok, let’s just nick the frogs motor and build on it from there on”
    “Really?”
    “Yep. Off you go. Say hi to Geri for me.”

    Red Bull gives you wings… and PU’s.

    • Whenever i read your comments i put my coffee down first. You have to be a comedy writer of some sort, mate.

      • S’efcharistó fíle mou.

        Not a comedy writer… far from. But I see much darkness in life in my “line of work” and the associated comedy of it; subsequently I hold very little precious.

        That attitude, combined with the blood of the great Ancient Greek phlyakes playwrights flows in my blood – as it does in yours – to blend into a potent combo.

        Add to that TJ13’s brilliant policy of freedom of speech, and, well, the result is a burlesque take on the farce, tragedy and myth that is Formula One.

        It’s worth laughing at.

        Please compliment me more… I’m in no way humble. Life’s not long enough for humility.

    • I’d say RBR having kicking Renault in the nads since 09, remember the continuous engine failures that Seb was encountering? It was traced back to a faulty alternator, which CH came out and said they’ve tried different specifications but it kept on failing.

      That forced Seb to miss a few practice sessions due to him running out of engines. Probably cost him the title that year.

    • Well said pal had 2 put my coffee down before i choked as for RBR its defo been a comedy of errors unless they have been pulling the strings all along; gracias mi amigo uve made my day

  9. I hop this the end off all the bull shit that has been going on &when will R B R come out & tell the fans

  10. @WTF_F1 You missed a pretty big part of it in your recap actually

    – That RBR / Ilmor have been co-developing the Renault engine for some time now at RBR’s expense. i.e. RBR actually put their $$ where there mouth is. Hence the long-standing disagreement over Intellectual Property, which now seems to be solved.

    Hooray for +40BHP! Hooray for Red Bull! Hooray for F1!
    Heck, we all know that Renault couldn’t have done it on their own…

  11. Where? I live in central valley of CA
    Sonoma? Track is nice, needs a lot I mean a lot of revamping.

    Laguna Secs? Not a chance with the locals. The track would be like a miniature version of interlagos and say goodbye to the corkscrew. It’s just way to small for f1…

    Long beach? Maybe but it’s an awful track surface half concrete and half asphalt. The logistics seem reasonable considering LAX is not to far and well LA has just about everything you want.

    Las Vegas? A night race with the strip as a straight with Palm Dr as the back straight and going through the tunnel under the airport would be epic…. Las Vegas feels like a unique experiment in architecture and least likely to be upset with loud noise. City never sleeps right?

  12. You guys are the FIRST to report this news! That’s why I visit your site every day!!!! Well Done! Top job!

    • I would assume that STR will have a 2015 Ferrari seeing that RBR wil not have a ready stock of new engins available. They need to produce a lot of own parts seeing the upgrades they would like to introduce in the beginning of 2016. Altough they might verry wel need a lot of data so it could be possible.

      But am i correct in thinking that redbull wil need a manufactering facillity to produce the upgraded parts as i understood the artical above they don’t have a facillity like that?
      And what would happen of they are struck with reliabillity issues wil they have the tools to not only fix the problems but acctualy build them? I do not see them asking Renault to do that that would negate their advantige an basicly be handing Renault their designs. So any thoughts on that?

      As an aside i think there wil be no official renault engine on track so that they wil be free to develop and test their unit for 2017.

  13. Brilliant scoop – great read, thanks Judge!
    It would be so nice if RBR give either Dan a car to show Lewis he’s not actually devine. Roll on 2016…

  14. i know that it isn’t the 1st april but not one other site has this story ?????? i’m searching for the hidden clue that tells me i’m dreaming.

  15. So, we have a superb RBR chassis with 2 very talented racers in it, with an engine that will be build with the money of a very rich guy who has a score to settle with all manufacturers on the grid. Whereas Renault will work with their old outdated facilities, running a team which hasn’t been working seriously on their chassis for months, having two rich kids under contract who can steer the car but are by no means super talents….. I’d say, 4-0 advantage RBR.
    Mercedes are pretty far away. Ferrari are the ones who should be worried now too.

  16. So effectively they will still be using a Renault power unit.

    A half a billion penalty fee would make anyone come to their senses.

    • it sounds like this was the plan the whole time. there was never any worry of the 500b exit fee. Clearly RB have some tech that renault wanted access to (maybe this was the treat being dangled in honda’s face) and maybe renault was able to get a little leverage via the 500b to get more access to RB technology.

      My guess, as i stated is that Renault will have access to v0.5 of RB’s tech while RB is working on 2.0 already and renault gets no access.

  17. This scenario does make a lot of sense though I would think that Renault would prefer the RB unit to still be called a Renault. After all, RB are not going to be criticising their own work so Renault wont take any Flak but their board might not want to see Lotus/Renault beaten by their own engine but not get any credit. So sticking my neck out I reckon it would still be called a Renault.

  18. @ the judge 13…..just to confirm my doubts. are you still standing 100% by your article that this is a done deal?

    • I hope it is a done deal we will not now until R B R comes out and say so that maybe soon how now  

  19. So this confirms the ‘unbranded Renault motor’ stories that have been around for the last week or more!

  20. Actually the RBR ERS is quite interesting.

    When RBR were having problems with the Magneti-Marelli alternator fitted to the V8 Renault, they designed their own alternator and had McLaren Electronics manufacture it for them.

    Presumably if they design their own ERS they will use McLaren to manufacture (and assist in design?) also!

          • Bad jokes rather than listing what McLaren manufactures outside of the Race Team. McLaren has become more than F1 team and you could argue that’s part of why the race team has fallen so far. McLaren probably have the ability to build it’s own power unit but neither has the inclination to do so or the necessary funds to do it properly. Honda or bust.

  21. Call me dense, many do, but I don’t understand what the future attribution of this engine is going to be. As I understand the article (or don’t) it’s currently an Infiniti branded RB/Renault hybrid ICE with a RB ERS. The ICE intellectual property is jointly owned. Exactly what the “token” system implies for future development I confess to not understanding however the longer this basic engine specification endures, the more the ICE is going to diverge from today’s design. Should Mr. Ilien’s work and RB’s money result in a PU that outperforms Renault’s own-brand unit… And what happens when, if successful, RB decide to lease the engine to other teams. It sure would be interesting to read the contract for the joint intellectual property. Wouldn’t surprise me if this one gets nasty. Let’s hope it does.

  22. There is one other interesting point about this deal. Will this PU that is based on the Renault engine effectively be a brand new engine with new manufacturer under FIA rules and therefore be eligible for the extra tokens etc for a new engine????

    • Since it was developed using this year’s token allocation I doubt they will get extra tokens as a new entrant.
      But F1 is more of a theatre of politics than a rational organization, so anything is possible.

      • True but those 12 tokens are ‘spent’ in 2015. Before the end of the season the PU is homologated. At the end of the 2015 the development of the Renault engine will split. Renault will work on their spec and Red Bull on theirs. So if the ‘in season’ development had not been allowed Renault and Red Bull would have homologated 2 different specs of PU in February. So that would mean what ever brand Red Bull brand their PU as would be a new manufacturer. Unless the FIA have a rule about how much of an existing engine must be changed to make it ‘New’ but looking at the amount of balls ups the FIA make with rules I doubt they ever envisaged a split in engine development between ‘teams’.
        So we may see Bernie and co ‘interpreting’ the rules to help Red Bull become a new PU manufacturer and thus I thing get first year (higher) number of in season tokens.

        This is going to be a very interesting story and gives a slight insight into Red Bulls & Renaults issues and disagreements over development with Illmore.

        Thanks judge for bring this story to us.

  23. Still no-one else is reporting this…..If there really is a RBR/Renault hybrid hybrid engine ready to go for 2016 then why has CH been going from motor-home to motor-home with a big frown on his face for the last couple of months? Even going as far as to talk to Honda (Honda! When he insists on having a ‘competitive engine’!!!) for crissake. Why would they have been talking seriously to VW/Audi? Why would they have been putting that poor, confused, old man to such stress and trouble if they already had the solution in the bag?
    I’m still not convinced. Great scoop if true, but odd behaviour to explain and hard questions to answer.

        • And do you think Mark Noble would’ve retweeted it with there being some truth to it? The guy is one of the most well respected journalist in the paddock. I seriously doubt he’d stick his neck out for a bogus story.

          • Well, I see all sorts of things being retweeted…
            You might be right. I’m just observing that the usual publications where you’d expect this to be showing up aren’t reporting it.

          • Mark Hughes used to work for autosport.com and is now regularly hired by SkySports to supply their F1 presenting team with the latest news and stuff. When he says the story is spot on it means he has heard a lot of rumors in the pitlane saying similar things but his since none of it is likely to be officially confirmed as a journalist he cannot publish the story, the judge 13 does not have this restriction ; -).

            Will Buxton, the guy that is hired by CBSSN to interview drivers and team members and is a regular guest at BBC radio 5 F1 live, also retweeted the link to this story.

          • @dobzizzle…

            Man I was over the moon, the look on Moanhino’s face was priceless 😂😂

    • Saward has written a scenario similar to this, although he does not say it is a done anything. I’m with you, I don’t think that there would have been all the fuss from Red Bull if it was as easily solved as throwing together a PU out in the back shop. The ice is the easy part of the PU to build, they have been making them for 100 years plus.The ER systems, their deployment, storage and integration are the complicated issues. Red Bull people only have to have written one line of code before you have IP ownership issues, because of the systems integration, and it may have nothing to do with the development of horsepower.

    • why has CH been going from motor-home to motor-home with a big frown on his face for the last couple of months?

      I guess they weren’t content with trolling Renault for the last few years, and fancied a few months’ trolling the rest of the manufacturers for free.

    • They were effectively covering their own asses. If Renault would not sign the agreement to have joint ownership of the engine, they could not run it, so just in case Renault said no, they had to go and find a plan b with another manufacturer.

      Now with the agreement signed, it means they do not have to worry about that anymore.

      • And if Renault said no, Renault could not run this engine in a Lotus. Renault would be back at…. Last years hardware with 1st wintertest software?

    • I am betting it was all about getting the deal Red Bull wanted from Renault re Intellectual Property and getting Bernie and FIA to agree to this ‘new’ hybrid RedBull/Renault engine. In theory it is the Renault engine with RB mods that are not homologated by Renault. So bit of a gray area, but by presenting it to Bernie and FIA as the only option, they have to agree. I think to get best deal they tried to show they had other options, unfortunately they didn’t so Renault can charge them a well inflated price for the base to Red Bulls PU.

    • Yeah i agree i’m not convinced at all. It wouldn’t be surprising to see RBR using an unbranded renault engine in 2016b(it’s that or exit/sit out next year). I don’t believe for one second it played out like this rumour suggests, it makes no sense. Didn’t this mario guy and his company get hired by renault anyway ?(not by RBR at some mysterious area 51 type secret engine building).

      • As I read it here, Mario Illien was hired by Renault on Red Bull’s insistance and worked on the engine. However Renault chose not to incorporate Illien’s modifications in their design. Then the whole jammed piston saga started and stole away our attention.
        It sounds like Renault has continued working on Illien’s design, and that is what is at the core of the dispute between Renault and Red Bull.

  24. Horner is impressively full of shit. From Autosport, regarding independent engines:
    “”It’s crucial because we’re demonstrating quite clearly there is no regulation that dictates that engine suppliers have to supply, let alone at a competitive price,” said Horner.”

    Perhaps they didn’t think they’d need to add a rule in that engine suppliers ‘have to supply’ because it was assumed that most teams wouldn’t complain constantly in the media about their long term engine supplier, launch their toys out of the pram, sever ties then suddenly realise that far from being sympathetic to their plight, most other teams wanted no association with them whatsoever.

    That’s the kind of life lesson most people would have learned on the playground as a child let alone having to have it explained to them when they’re in a management role at a multi-million £ business.

    • So you didn’t figure out that all press statements released by red bull were completely fictitious?

      At least try to have a relevant comment instead of parroting the 10 most common insults used against red bull that have no foundation in reality whatsoever.

      It was all a giant bluff. And a beautiful one at that.

      I’ll wait for your completely predictable response – I’m writing everything you’re going to respond with in an envelop so we can open and see how many matches i have after your reply. My guess is 7.

  25. Is it legal? I mean do the current f1 engine regs allow this? Or will there be a vote among the other teams? That is what some are suggesting.

    Anybody abel to shed some light on this?

  26. Also, far from meaning the end of the plan for an independent supplier, surely RB will now be pushing to be that supplier, just using a different brand name for the engine? They’ve got a year to develop their own engine to have it ready in time for 2017, and it sounds like they’ve already been developing it anyway so have a head start. It means an additional revenue stream for them which I can imagine they’ll be extremely grateful for…

    • you mean innovation?

      can’t wait till merc’s illegal rear suspension is highlighted! Banning FRIC was the other teams attempt at getting some exposure in this area but it didnt work.

  27. So I was wrong about them taking Honda engines? Tentatively removes “smug face”, and puts on “surprised face”. I can see all sorts of problems coming with arguments about who owns the rights to what regarding engine development. If this is to be considered a Renault engine, does that mean the restriction on the number of teams they can supply still holds?

  28. Maybe it was RBR’s plan all along? They must have known Mercedes wasn’t wiling (so RBR could say Mercedes is afraid), nor Ferrari (same). And RBR knew, like we all knew, that Honda was commited to McLaren (so RBR get to pick on Ron). Was it all just smoke and mirrors? RBR can beat their own chest and say they saved F1, because losing 2 teams would surely have upset the F1 world and no-one was willing to help poor old RBR…
    In the mean time, they have made more enemies than you need. But also more headlines than a simple F1 sponsor could manage… was this all deliberate?

    • It’s classic RBR. Create a PR storm to keep the team in the headlines, whilst diligently working on the real plan to secure the teams future successes. They may have made things up as they went along, but they do appear to have played everyone off each other very well indeed.
      Anyway it creates a new PR myth/story for the Red Bulls marketing people to craft and sell i.e. Fizzy Drinks Company beats Motoring giants at their own game. There is a youth angle in there somewhere.

      • Exactly. Now red bull has it on record how a PU manufacture is allowed to behave and when those teams come crying and calling for red bull to be reigned in again they won’t have a leg to stand on.

        I knew merc was going to regret going back on their handshake agreement.

        • That assumes Red Bull are successful and build a competitive power unit. Could still be a case of egg on everyone’s faces in Milton Keynes. I don’t think a lot of people have taken the time to understand the technology and how complex it is to get right or how long it takes to fix if you get it wrong. Red Bull have used that to their advantage in the PR campaign it’s been engaged in.

          The interesting side to the current power units is the chemistry of the fuels and lubricants and how they deliver extra performance when optimised for the power unit configuration. Even if say Williams have the A spec power unit, they will still be down on power as Mercedes are unlikely to share it’s latest fuel and lubricant developments with a customer team. So that’s another mountain Red Bull have to climb matching and bettering Mercedes on the fuel front.

    • Friends in F1 doesn’t mean much. Williams and Mercedes are friends and look what that really means: Williams gets to stand around and hold Mercedes jacket and feed off mercs table scraps while being relinquished to a 2nd tier team who has no chance of WDC ever.

      You think red bull wants to be someone else’s bitch? Have they ever shown that type of mentality? They are cut throat competitors, they way a real team should be.

  29. Pingback: Exclusive: Red Bull secure an engine for 2016 | Pappillon·

  30. If true, this is going to be fun to watch…who’s going to be most often at the back of the grid with engine penalties I wonder…

  31. Top article, and pretty informed(and funny as) comments,
    the Mario Illien plus AVL tie up, makes all of this plauseable.
    AVL are an Austrian company, this is the blurb,
    “AVL is the world’s largest independent company for the development of powertrain systems with internal combustion engines as well as instrumentation and test systems.”
    See…….Austrian , same as Dietrich Mateschitz, expect Gerhard Berger, and Arnold Schwarzenegger to join the development programme too………..
    Refer to below story too,
    https://thejudge13.com/2015/03/25/red-bull-a-step-closer-to-building-engines/

    Cheers all, keep up the humour.

  32. That’s the nice thing about Formula 1. The rumors are just as exciting as the sport itself. In the Internet age of one or two shoots but every now and then over the top. A website under the name “The Judge13” reported on Thursday (5.11.20115) that the Renault -Deal be fix with Red Bull, Red Bull in 2016 could develop independently of the engine, and that this work in its own engine department in Milton Keynes takes place where Mario Illien reportedly been working for over a year.

    In the story that has been copied by various news websites, it said that the motor-stage with 11 developmental tokens that will bring Renault for the first time in Brazil at the start, actually comes from Ilmor and so far the only reason could not be used because it had come between Red Bull and Renault to a copyright dispute over intellectual property.

    Illien know nothing about Renault upgrade
    So far, so bad. Only Mario Illien has strangely heard himself not. The Swiss Motor Pope responded surprised at the rumors and clarifies:.. “I know nothing of a dispute I also have no idea what upgrades Renault has incorporated in its modified engine Also, I can not imagine that a large company like Renault, the arrives risk, secretly install my development. “

    • Michael Schmidt is rather pissed he didn’t get the big story of the year, which is Red Bull Racing will be using a ‘building block’ from Renault and developing its PU for 2016 with Mario Illien.

      The denials are interesting. Illien says he has never been to the Red Bull engine facility (building 9) where the AVL $10m Virtual test Track is housed. However, one has to question whether an engineer would not want to see the installation that is providing all the data about an engine design.

      Illien did not deny he is working with RBR to deliver a PU for 2016 and in fact he confirms the existence of the building 9 RBR engine facility – which only TJ13 has reported upon thus far this year.

      i could go on….

      • @ the judge…i do wish that you would go on. why would illien be in denial? why hasn’t there been any acknowledgements from autosport et al? i do really want this to happen but until there is some formal statement, even in principle, i am most sceptical. red bull have not issued one scintilla of information to the public. time is fastly coming to either accept your story or consign it to the round file under my desk.

      • still no formal acknowledgement from either party? are we all going down the garden path looking for fairies?

      • But Illien catagorically denied involvement in the updated Renault PU due to debut as well as denied agreed involvement for any 2016 update. I think RBR get an unbranded PU based on the 2015 update and are then on their own for 2016. And old story, nothing new, maybe an agreement on IP for what RBR do themselves next year.
        Anyway what happened to the ‘Renault to buy RBR’ exclusive posted on here before?

        Quote
        Illien bestreitet auch, dass er in Milton Keynes eine Motorenabteilung bezogen hätte und dass es Pläne gebe, im nächsten Jahr zusammen mit Red Bull den Renault-Motor zu überarbeiten.

        Illien also denied that he would have take an engine department in the Milton Keynes factory and he also denied plans that he would work together next year with Red Bull to modify the Renault engine

  33. Now RBR have full control of their destiny. They have nobody to criticize bar themselves. I wonder if this will stop their critics for blaming them for any criticism of Renault.

  34. Very interesting article indeed, TJ! But instead of saying “bitterness between Renault and RBR” I would rather say “insults from RBR to Renault”, which is a bit different. It all sounds very plausible now albeit with a twist. Two points are striking. First, the thing about “rebranding” the engine. Who are they trying to fool? A Renault engine with another sticker on it? This is absolutely ridiculous. It’s like changing the name of a soap. Or shampoo. Who cares? They have used the trick before with Mecachrome ages ago. The reasons for doing so now are not the same as back then, but it may have helped to sort out a legal mess. I doubt very much though, that Renault would not have the millions to pay a penalty. Moreover, does anyone care about the Infinity sticker on RBR sidepods? Maybe the real reason for copying that sticker on the engine too would be to allow RBR insulting Infinity instead of Renault. The second point is Mario Illien. We heard the rumors about him getting involved to somehow “rescue” the underperforming French engine last year. Unless I missed a chapter or two, that sort of collaboration never got an official stamp of approval. RBR can of course hire any guru they like, but allowing him to tinker with someone else’s engine is a different thing altogether. I assume RBR would need explicit approval from Renault to be allowed to mess around with their engine. Could it be that the engine blew up one time or two because Mario got it wrong? Now that would be interesting! Who takes the blame then? Renault? RBR/Mario? I guess there might be details we don’t know. Or not yet. Fact is that public perception of the failure goes to Renault! I think it doesn’t matter very much that some fans might feel sympathetic, because Renault has contributed an awful lot to the sport. Ron Dennis likes to say he knows what it takes to win races. Statistics prove that Renault can make the same claim. I don’t think they need a guru to sort out their engine. The days where a single engineer makes a difference, however brilliant he might be, are long gone. It might apply to car designers like Chapman, Forghieri, Head, Byrne or Newey. But on the engine side that’s not the case. Witness how engine makers don’t rely on a single engineer to build winning engines. I will share more thoughts on Carlos Ghosn on the next occasion, because otherwise this would end up too long… And there is an awful lot to say about him!

  35. Looks like RB have snatched victory from defeat though they may have had things under more control than they let us believe. It is probably a good deal for Renault as i can’t believe they won’t have the option to share RB development particulary on software as i would take RB expertise in this area over any other team and software is key to making the PU work properly. I imagine that the homologation/development/tokens areas will be a can of worms and protests could be possible but for now RB have played a blinder. TJ13 has also played a blinder by scooping everyone else. You have to feel for Eddie Jordan sometimes!

  36. Listed in google “In the news” section, mission accomplished. Interesting how this rumour pans out.

  37. no wonder they wanted to get hold of a Merc or Ferrari engine so they could see how its done and copy to make their own engine, must have been a long term plan if Illien has been working there for a year. so all was not as it seemed, poor old red bull no one would let them have an engine. Maybe they got wind of their future plans.

    • Christian Horner was interviewed today in Brazil…he said Red Bull are a chasis constructor and have no plans to develop their own engine.

      Looks like TJ13 are off the mark here…

  38. Pingback: FERRARI TO SUPPLY ENGINES TO RED BULL - FerrariChat.com·

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