Disclaimer: TheJudge13 provides a platform for Formula 1 fans to publish their voice on matters relating to Formula 1. The views expressed in Voice of #F1 Fans are those of the contributor and not those held by TJ13.
Brought to you by TJ13 contributor, @WTF_F1
I’ve developed a few online friendships over the past year or two and it’s primarily Formula One that binds us together. A more disparate group of people you couldn’t find; each with their own unique ideas, cognitive framework of scrutiny, emotional biases and of course lives. Rich, poor, black, white, old, young, street-smart, academic, bald, hairy, wise, naïve, emotional, logical, pragmatic, idealistic, Hamilton-fan, Vettel-fan, fanboi, disinterested, are but some of the terms that could be used to describe various members of a ragtag group of Formula One aficionados, and possibly it could describe all members at different times.
Over the course of many discussions/arguments/taunts/fights, the term ‘arrogance’ occasionally arises with respect to a driver, past or present. Sometimes when describing Schumacher’s disposition during his prime career, or Hamilton’s persona presently, or Rosberg’s “stupid, smug and arrogant face!” This week following the Australian Grand Prix, a spike in the use of the word ‘arrogant’ was observed by yours truly. A spike in its use, not only amongst my friends, but also across Formula One’s fan base. Why? Well this time it’s in relation to young Verstappen and his juvenile yelps of displeasure during the race.
But before we begin discussing the next Fangio, Schumacher or Senna et al. I ask, what is arrogance? I don’t think I quite know – well not succinctly and clearly. I couldn’t explain it precisely to my child with confidence. It seems to be a hybrid of different elements and is perceived uniquely by each individual given their lives, nationality, culture, ethnicity, education level and even mood at the time of discourse. It’s not clear to a mind like mine what it actually is and what one is supposed to infer from its use. I, of course, understand that it’s supposed to be negative… I’m not that stupid. Or am I?
The Oxford Dictionary defines ‘arrogance’ as:
1.the quality of being arrogant.
Helpful…
It also defines ‘arrogant’ as:
1.having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities.
Ooookay… let’s check some other dictionaries.
Other definitions of the word in question simply present as opinions, which is possibly why I don’t quite understand the term’s use and have to continue to contextualise a person, and why they are using the term, in order to better understand what they are trying to say. Often the use of this particular term infiltrates rhetoric that is filled with an accusers own cognitive biases, over and above what’s normally acceptable in non-academic human interaction..
You get my point… I hope.
So, what are people actually seeing / saying when they want to describe a driver, or anyone, as ‘arrogant’ or having displayed ‘arrogance’ of some kind?
Let’s cut the word into two distinct parts. From my observations, arrogance tends to boil down to this. Once the concept of ‘arrogance’ is cut up, we see the purer parts that form the hybrid notion. In one hand we have ‘entitlement’ and in the other we have ‘overconfidence’. For a moment lets remove the ‘over’ part from ‘confidence’ and just hold onto the two origin ideas that combine to make someone normal (not me) perceive arrogance.
Both of these words, ‘entitlement’ and ‘confidence’, enjoy very specific and clear definitions. Definitions of both words are consistent among all dictionaries and thus both terms are used accurately by most people without too much emotional bias. We immediately know what they mean. There is little subjectivity to the terms ‘entitlement’ and ‘confidence’ with any substantial subjectivity limited to the context in which either term is employed… unlike arrogance.
Now that we’ve clarified, perhaps erroneously, the subsets of how people might use the word ‘arrogant’, what Verstappen showed during the Australian Grand Prix, and in fact many times last season, is pure ‘entitlement’ and nothing more. As the simple set of definitions from Merriam-Webster explains, Max has shown a “condition of having a right to have, do, or get something”, as well as, “the feeling or belief that you [he] deserve[s] to be given something (such as special privileges).”
In contrast, in many cases where the hybrid notion/word of arrogance has been used with respect to Schumacher (or Senna), it’s my opinion that the above definition of ‘entitlement’ does not hold true. I don’t find evidence that supports that Schumacher felt he had the right to win. Or that he deserved to be given something he didn’t work for, be that track position or unearned status at Ferrari. To my eye, Schumacher simply had an innate belief that he was very good, and probably the best, and that he worked the hardest in and out of the car, and subsequently he fought ferociously and ruthlessly for himself and his team – both on and off the track.
It could be said that he was ‘overconfident’… but what is OVERconfident? These people are international level sports stars and athletes. I interpret confidence as self-belief in one’s abilities, which is a key mindset at the very top of not only sport, but anywhere in competitive life. Perhaps one can be OVERconfident in that their confidence outweighs their displayed abilities to that point in the fourth dimension (time)… but even in that I’d applaud the person for that particular mindset. I personally have no issue with confidence, OVERconfidence (too subjective for my tastes) and a cultivated self-delusion of increased ability in order for that delusion to perhaps osmotically permeate reality somehow in the Aristotelian way of one becoming the act, over time, and the like. It’s the nature of ambition in competitive environments. It’s what serves sports people and athletes their whole career until the day they hit their true limitations.
Like Schumacher, this notion of arrogance has also been levelled at Hamilton on many occasions. Once again, I can’t quite grasp that notion and have had to try to understand the person saying it first, and how they use it, before I understand exactly what they mean and what they’re trying to highlight. Looking at the two separate foundational words that make up most people’s version of arrogance – entitlement and confidence – then I can’t see any genuine evidence of Hamilton feeling entitled to anything; not in the Villeneuve Jr., or Montoya way. Hamilton is confident, yes. Is he OVERconfident? His outstanding career results suggest not. He’s ferocious, like Schumacher was. He thinks he is the best, like Schumacher was, and frankly he is only equalled – or potentially bettered – by Vettel depending on how one analyses things. That element is subjective anyhow, but by definition Hamilton isn’t OVERconfident, nor is he entitled, thus, he isn’t arrogant. His confidence is in line with his achievements and status. Even if it wasn’t, who cares? That’s a required sporting/competitive mentality. But entitled he certainly isn’t.
Self-belief isn’t arrogance. I find it more revealing of the person that uses the word and notion than the person it’s actually levelled at. You can learn a great deal about people in that way, when someone doesn’t like Rosberg’s “stupid, smug and arrogant face” or feels “Schumacher was arrogant when he was trying to win all the time in such ways” or states “Hamilton thinks he’s so good how he acts; he’s arrogant!” None of these people are arrogant, in my opinion, simply because they didn’t/don’t show that one most annoying element that forms the core of arrogance, which is entitlement. Confident? Yes. OVERconfident? Dunno. Who cares?
At this early stage of his career, Verstappen shows large amounts of entitlement. Let’s hope that melts away as the years add up for him; though it didn’t for the likes of Villeneuve Jr., or Montoya, whose squealing rarely abated.
Entitled people tend not to want to learn. They have no desire to do so. They don’t quite realise the damage they do to themselves by not continuing to actively learn. It is as if it’s a weakness to them.
Verstappen has shown this trait regularly – Monaco last season in particular – and he’s in a sport that is too complex to mentally isolate oneself, not to mention he is too young to stop the learning process now. I am aware he is young, but, that’s largely irrelevant; this is his challenge now at the very unforgiving pinnacle of motorsport. True success in Formula One, from what I have seen, isn’t just about pure talent, of which Verstappen has it in spades. Watching him ring the neck of the Toro Rosso at the Australian GP during the greasy sessions was quite remarkable. Let’s hope that talent can flourish, and that someone tells him to fight, fight hard, but keep his mouth shut and keep working. The last thing Verstappen needs is enablers telling him that “even the best fought hard” etc. Fighting isn’t what he is doing. Squealing is.
In the end, no one reasonable will lambast him for over-enthusiasm, or extreme ferocity, like both Schumacher and Hamilton had. They will for entitlement. The youngster can know he’s good, there is no issue there, but he has to earn his success and track positions with ferocity. Not squealing like a pig. The team said “race”, so Max, I suggest you just fucking get on with it and race.
I hate whingers; I think I’ve mentioned that.
Tomorrow I will publish Part 2 to this opinion piece where I more rigorously look into Verstappen’s junior racing pedigree, the disconnection between said pedigree and the hype, and thus perhaps go some way to explaining how this inflated sense of entitlement sprang forth.
All very well and good, however your analysis of the concept of arrogance fails to factor in the context of confirmed exceptional sporting achievers, or the cultural influence. Germans and Dutch folks come across in a certain way to others outside their culture
Also Max has not yet graduated the teenage hormones, just sayin….
What a load of rubbish, and no matter how academic you write something, it’s still rubbish.
Verstappen thought he had the right to pit first because that was what had been agreed upfront, however Sainz desperately trying to show he’s just as fast as Verstappen destroyed his tyres way too quickly, making him go against what was agreed. Verstappen feeling Sainz stole his pit stop got angry and came in, and when the team wasn’t ready and he ended up behind Sainz, he thought the team should move Sainz over, as a sort of payback, because Sainz wasn’t going anywhere with overtaking Palmer.
All 3 parties were just as guilty in the whole mess. The team for poorly communicating, Sainz for wanting to show himself off and by so destroying his tyres, and Verstappen for losing his temper and by so pitting too early. And “NO!,” the Singapore situation was the same, because in that case Sainz asked to be let by while he even wasn’t faster (and where is your piece about Sainz’s “entitlement,” because he actually asked to be privileged by going against “the Red Bull house rule” of the slower driver letting the faster one go by during races?).
The cause of the whole mess can be led back to how the Red Bull system works regarding rookies, if you haven’t made it after two years to RBR, you most likely won’t make it. Sainz knows this, and tries desperately to give the impression he’s just as fast as Verstappen (hence all the lock ups) and by so goes against what was agreed on how long the stint had to last (why do you think Sainz calls, “Guys we need to stop, stop” ?).
So stop trying to shove it all on Verstappen without mentioning the role of the team (bad communication) and Sainz in it all (both times it actually started with Sainz).
Anyways, it wasn’t Sainz who drove into the back of his teammate nearly taking them out of the race.
“Shields up”
It was Sainz locking up in the middle of the corner which caused the collision, but that doesn’t sound nearly as dramatic as just saying Verstappen hit Sainz from behind, now doesn’t it?
Verstappen lost his temper a bit as I have written above already (like that has never happened before in F1), but he gets way too much flak about it, and I don’t know the reasons why so many think they need to take that much aim at him, but it’s a bit too much…
…you do do realize that Dutch people always have a very direct way in expressing themselves ?… I read about a Belgian who started to work in The Netherlands for the first time and needed some time getting adjusted to that. He was used that not much was being said in meetings at work (it was all done at the coffee machine in groups of 2 or 3), but was shocked to learn that in The Netherlands things are being brought up straight away at the table. 😉
So it was Sainz fault why Max ran into the back of his car?…mmmm ok….
I’ve seen leading cars locking up in the middle of corners and no one ran into the back of them, so that’s some real lame ass excuse you’re trying to use as a defense.
So out of curiosity, when he ran into the back of Pastor and Grosjean in Monaco last year, was that their fault too?
Man you better get the hell outta here with that bullshit!
…and what did Button say about Maldonado when running into him at Singapore ?
But I get it now, there are a few over here who don’t like Verstappen and everything is justified to try and have a go at him, “and please don’t try and counter some of the things we try to blow way out of proportion, because we don’t like.”
I’m sorry, I could’ve sworn we’re discussing Max here. Whatever Jenson had to saw about his coming together with Pastor has nothing to do with this conversation.
But your comments trying to justify what he did, I’d say is a perfect illustration of what the author was trying to convey in the article.
Max carries that badge of entitlement on his chest, despite having done nothing noteworthy to do so. His behaviour was deplorable and disrespectful towards his team and his teammate. But I’m not only going to blame him, I’m blaming Franz as well, because had he nip it in the bud/butt after Singapore rather than coming out and supporting his blatant disregard for the team, this wouldn’t have happened in Australia.
The hype from the media comparing him to Senna/Schumacher etc has gotten to his head.
“The hype from the media comparing him to Senna/Schumacher etc has gotten to his head.”
…and I’m posting nonsense ?
Some of you, including the writer of this article, might want to look in a mirror more often.
Well as a belgian working in the hollandland for little to 10 years now I can say that the dutch usually are full of themselves no matter how wrong they are. Like in football. Always champion before the first ball got kicked, never champion when the tournament is over. Still full of excuses how they are the better team.. dutch people thend to oversell themselves and dont admit it when proven wrong.. if you are wrong you are wrong. No shame in admitting that.
As a dutch working with Belgians (Belgs?) I have to say a Belg was my first non paying customer. In the end he did pay after many false promises, but it must be that all Belgians are full of shit and unkept promises.
(@Bruz: 🙂 the story is true, but I’m just poking around, if I ever go to Spa, I’ll have a beer with you)
Well it’s all fun and games here. And since I know you here for a long time I quite like you 😂
I suppose it was Grosjeans fault as well in Monaco as well then, being hit up the arse ? I see a pattern forming. Oh I forgot he broke to early as well 😉
Can you show me were they agreed that max would come in first? This is the first I heard about it…
When Verstappen comes out saying, “that he told the team that he wanted to pit first,” it’s means there was an agreement that he had the call to go first.
Verstappen going in immediately after Sainz also had to do with the first pit stop. Sainz goes in at lap 8 with Verstappen 6.2 seconds ahead, but after Verstappen did his pit stop in lap 13, he’s barely ahead (1.1s) of Sainz. However at the second pit stop, Sainz goes in while Verstappen is only 1.9 seconds ahead, and Verstappen (wrongfully) fearing Sainz is going to jump him with the undercut goes also in immediately. And due to the new radio clampdown rules, the team didn’t tell him he didn’t needed to worry about that.
“When Verstappen comes out saying, “that he told the team that he wanted to pit first,” it’s means there was an agreement that he had the call to go first…….
What???? No it doesn’t mean that, he’s only expressing an opinion. If there was an agreement that he was to have stopped first, he would’ve clearly stated by saying…..”it was agreed that I was to stop first”
You know like the Mercedes rule, car in front stops first unless otherwise.
You better stop all this nonsense
When I say “Borg has to pay me 1000 euro”, it means there is an agreement that you pay me 1000 euro? When I tell my boss that I want to have a higher pay and will lunch 60 instead of 30 minutes each day, there is an agreement? FFS man.
Gotta say, this is the biggest load of shit that’s been written since the Holy Bible, the Torah and the Qu’ran.
It’s just a hateful, spiteful and venomous attack on a young man who’s trying his hardest to succeed in life and F1.
What’d you ever do, eh, WTF_F1? People like you make me sick. Racist. And what’s with that name anyway? Stupid. Grow up.
Even Schumacher and Fangio had that desire to win, so why shouldn’t Verstappen?
I refuse to read part 2 on the grounds of trying to preserve what’s left of my intellect after that acidic trope burned away at my grey matter.
TheJudge13 deserves better than this vitriol. The world is poorer for your continued existence. Please don’t procreate.
Kind regards,
@WTF_F1
I liked it. Don’t be so hatin’
It’s time someone brought a pinch of realism to the dutch.
After max knocked himself out the dutch telly came up with arguments like look how fast he is driving now. Much faster than sainz. While not mentioning that he was in clean air. No car insight.
It’s easy to be quicker that way. If he was so much faster than sainz and he was such a better racer he should’ve overtaken him.
It doesn’t get more simple than that.
“If he was so much faster than sainz and he was such a better racer he should’ve overtaken him.”
…just like Hamilton ?
Hamilton went from p7 to p2. Without asking the team to get nico out of the way. So yes.
Well, could he overtake Verstappen with a faster car ?
Well could verstappen overtake sainz? Same car but according to you much worse driver.
Where did I wrote he’s “a much worse driver,” he’s not as talented as Verstappen, but I have seen way worse in the few decades I’m watching F1, however I don’t see him as a future WDC like Ricciardo and probably Vandoorne.
That bit must’ve come after he went from P1 to P7, then?
…the vitriol for this commentary! All in defense of a teenager, “having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities.”
“Racist.” People toss that word out at the drop of a hat, despite being utterly ignorant of racism’s contexts and vagaries.
“Even Schumacher and Fangio had that desire to win, so why shouldn’t Verstappen? When was the FIRST time you heard Juan Manuel puling to his paddock over the radio???
“I refuse to read part 2 on the grounds of trying to preserve what’s left of my intellect after that acidic trope burned away at my grey matter.”
By the way: trope – noun. a figurative or metaphorical use of a word or expression. Key elements in the definition: WORD; EXPRESSION. Attempting to describe the entire commentary as a “trope” completely misses how “expression” is used in the definition.
Fortunately, the world continues to spin —– in spite of your comment.
Hiya DWil, ’tis me, your old buddy, @WTF_F1.
I changed my Gravatar thingy for a new blog I have and only the blog name apprears – even if I type WTF_F1. Technology and me… erm, sorta kinda fail. Trying to keep up with the kids. Anyway, I’ve been signing off posts as WTF_F1 too, to clarify. Was anticipating the incoming wave from the Borg in a kind of “hey, look, I can flame myself too – but better. Fun, eh?” sort of a way.
RE: Trope. I meant ‘tripe.’ As in, bullshit, nonsense, rubbish etc – the O and the I are very near on the keyboard. Good pick-up by the way. ‘Tripe’ is a very Australian term. “What’s this f’kn tripe, mate?” “What tripe are you spewin’ now, mate?” “That acidic tripe burning away at my grey matter” “You’re just full of hateful tripe.”
Yes, ‘trope’ would be a misuse.
Anyway, I guess this is where Ashton comes out and says “punk’d!” but remains out of reaching distance until the victim appears to have calmed sufficiently.
*remains out of DWil’s reach*
Racist??..I didn’t get that from those words. I thought it was a well set out article designed to make you think.
It’s a running gag we have 😂
You do realize he’s the writer trying to bait you into reading part 2 (and psst, he knows what’s coming in the future when Verstappen will give competition to smiley)?
That’s the spirit, mate!
Hopefully, before that, smiley gets to Ferrari to give Vettel a good ol’ bashing, again.
@WTF_F1
You are replying to yourself or am I getting confused?
Technically, yes, I am replying to myself.
I was quite displeased with the revolting attack the author (me) made on the youngster. I’ve reported myself to the administrators of this site.
I think this site deserves better than me. 😀
@WTF_F1
for sure this site deserves better than some of these fluff article writers who has done untold damage to the site, and what with the “site boss” himself fighting it out with posters!
And definitely deserves better than some of the moronic commenters with poor reading comprehension and negative social skills. hahahahahaha!!!
while this here article writer acting as a poster have a free passage re his criticism to other posters, posters on the receiving end does not, was blocked the other day, this might be seen as a weakness on the receiver, which is not the case at all.
Inception
“Like Schumacher, this notion of arrogance has also been levelled at Hamilton on many occasions.”
I don’t hear arrogance levied at Hamilton, but petulance.
Good point, Andy.
@WTF_F1
You’re making loads of new friends today 🙂
I hope Max will grow up, that Marko forgives him and takes him to Red Bull next year. And… That he asks Jos to stay at home. Like Hamilton, Max needs to fire his dad. Jos isn’t his manager, but a sort of mental coach. And I don’t want a mental mental coach around who has anger issues and loads of perceived entitlement. Still I am a fan of Jos, on his day he was really fast.
About the situation in Austalia, I can understand Max’ feeling of being entitled to the first stop – he was the leading driver. But a true champ just gets over it and takes over.
But Max is not a champion, unless you’re referring to his time in karts, but Sainz jr, now he’s a true champion…😉
Don’t attack the man. He’s probably the only dutch man around here who has sense in his comments.
You don’t understand, no stone should be left unturned to attack Verstappen.
No. It’s not that way. But it isn’t necessary either to just worship the ground he walks upon.
You do realize all 18-23 year olds think they know it all, till they get smacked a few times on the nose and learn that isn’t the case ?
I have giving him flak, but there are many who blow it all way out of proportions…making such an article about what’s actual a pretty normal phase in every young men’s life is taking it a bit too far.
This is the first article I’ve seen where they don’t try to suck in the sheets tru his dick actually.
I admit he acted unprofessional but having worked in a achievement-led business, investment banking, one has to have a certain confidence. Then you go out and either prove it or fail. Sorry but this post was a waste of my and everyone else’s time.
“WHAT IS ‘ARROGANCE’ IN FORMULA ONE?”
Ecclestone.
Wow! So much passion here for someone other than LH or SV. I love it ☺
Can I throw in some Kierkegaard? To defend something is always to discredit it. Relax people…
Ya gotta love people who fire off hyper-rational slings and arrows with abandon but lose their sh!t when their own favourites cop some criticism.
For mine, young Chip Verstappen is just a garden-variety teenage w*nker. Age will knock some if his sharper edges off, but he won’t change that much in years to come.
The father’s a thoroughly nasty piece of work. Could be coincidental.
Wow, lots of heated arguments and debate. Just how a site like this should be.
Verstappen is 18 years old with all that comes with it.
I think he is very talented indeed, but, yes there is a but, quite a few drivers in the past have been very talented but their trajectory to success is not always linear.
I have enjoyed his first year in F1 with his overtaking moves, however i don’t think he has outshone his teammate like he probably should for someone that almost everybody thinks will be the next Senna. There are a few facts that come into his defense, it is only his first year in F1 like his teammate, however Carlos Jr. is older and has had a few competitive racing years over Max.
I think we are also underestimating a bit how good Carlos is.
Lets just sit and relax and enjoy the show.
Takes in a deep breath…..
“Awwww love the smell of F1 debating in the morning”…..
F1!is officially back and in full swing
Your Honour, moderator, judge and juror. This is a true opportunity, a real test for you to not only to stop the demise of this site’s followers but to actually increase the site followers, Be and act like a real man that can give as much as he takes, stop and drop the “you better get out of here thing” when somebody doesn’t agree with you or any of your contributors, let all posts stands, both those for and against your opinion and that of your contributors.
“You better get of here thing”…..
Was meant as a figure of speech and not to be interpreted literally. It’s also abundantly clear that the person who it was addressed to did not see it the way you have.
Enjoy visiting and reading the site.
Thanks fortis96, now that’s what I call a man should be like. I was a bit upset the other day having a post not agreeing with one of your contributors trashing-it out as a poster not let to stand (being blocked). back to the subject/article to clear some air on my behalf, I actually agree that MV is a crying baby spoiled as a brat, an attitude that his boss failed to arrest when he had his first chance to do so.
Agree WTF, confidence is not just a good thing for a racer, it’s a pre-requisite, so no issue there for me whatsoever. However, Max is showing a sense of entitlement that is simply unearned. No titles in single seaters to date? Clearly a fabulous talent to watch with regards to car control (reminds me of a Alesi – fantastic to watch, a bit too emotional in the car for his own good – with all that talent how many titles did poor Jean ever win in the end?)
Max had a bad day at the office, by itself no issue, but the problem for me is the people he is taking advice from are not helping him. Keeping Jos away from Grand Prix would be a good start!!
From last weekend, yu, it’s easy to be faster in clear air, but I didn’t so far see compelling evidence he is inherently faster than Sainz every weekend, and lets face it, Sainz is hardly a quantified talent (not knocking Sainz either, people forget he is also young, and whilst he has more experience than Max, in any other case he would be regarded as just developing himself). Whilst the 2015 Torro Rosso did make comparisons between team-mates hard, I still doubt a rookie Senna or Schumacher would not have clobbered their teammates in qualy!
So, no anti Max agenda, he does make for compelling viewing, but yes, please when told you can pass your teammate make a fair go of it and if you can’t, deal with the fact you couldn’t pull it off rather than looking to lay the blame elsewhere, and consider if you have any responsibility for being stuck behind him in the first place, after all, had he not lost the plot when he saw Sainz stop early and stayed out till the team called him in and were ‘ready’, we probably wouldn’t have this lovely talking point at all.
I think as already quoted above. The author doesn’t know a lot of Dutch people. Because the dutch are called arrogant a lot of the time. They are used to to speak there mind and give their opinion even if they are wrong.
With that in mind lets look at the context of this whole story. He was doing his best for the team and in his mind they made a mistaken. So he gives his opinion in the head of the moment in a straight forward manor (Normal for dutch). But what he is not realizing is that the board radio is aired on live tv. (In my opinion because of inexperience)
The rest is history and blown out of proportion by the media.
The only thing that verstappen needs to do is control his emotion when the team in his eyes make a mistake. Because the 2 times that this happened Monaco and now Australia he lost his edge.
“blown out of proportion by the media”? I watched the race trough a danish broadcast (first torrent I found available) and the kid behaved like a prat himself without any help from the tv channel speakers.
The Kid spoke his opinion to the team from his perspective. Not more. The Media is trying to make it a fight between drivers or internal criticism like alonso gp2 engine quote.
If verstappen had said that he was coming in and the tyres where ready he would be less aggressive on the track and on the radio even behind Sainz.
So because the dutch are know for their arrogant and loud behaviour we should all accept it?
And because a lot of Belgians are frustrated to the bone and channel that towards the Dutch we as Dutch should simply accept that ?
Maybe you should stop polarising and worry more about how Belgians are being looked at ?
There are plenty of well known Dutch people who aren’t arrogant, to name just a few, v. Nistelrooij, v.d. Sar, Schippers, Zonderland, Zoetemelk, Rijkaard, v.d. Hoogeband, Hiddink, etc. (I could make the list a whole lot bigger)…just as there are luckily enough Belgians who aren’t frustrated to the bone, but you don’t do your country any favours in the way you act.
Don’t be so butthurt. It actually said we have to take peace with it that the dutch are that way. I just want to know why? There actually a lot of non arrogant dutch people. But there are also a lot who are or come over arrogant. It’s just the way you are wired. And as off not doing the country any favour your comments are just the same. They come over very arrogant and talk down to people who are giving (fair) critique on max. It’s not because you are a fanboi that we all have to be. Nor does it matter one little bit what we say here because little max won’t ever read it. And at the judge’s there is critique for everyone actually. This right here is the only piece I’ve seen on max in a bad way. I can’t count the ones written like this about hamilton or vettel. But being part of the elite group of people who make it to the kingdom of f1 makes you a target in the spotlight of Internet people. Deal with it. You can say whatever the fuck you want. Remember dutch usually do, as pointed out a couple of times above, but I can to. If you don’t like it it’s your own worries not mine. And if I want to criticise baby jesus I will. And you can comment about it. That’s how this site works… has worked for ages. And hopefully will for ages. So I bid to you a good day
There’s so much Belgians vs Dutch arguments flying around here, so is this the right moment to interject that Maximilian is as much (if not more) Belgian than Dutch? From Wiki:
“he was born in the Belgian town of Hasselt to a Dutch father and Belgian mother,[5] lives in Bree, Belgium and travels with a Belgian passport”
That he competes under the Dutch flag is partly a matter of convention (racers are obliged to declare a country they run for from very early in their careers). Clearly Li’l Max has a stake in both countries and with both cultures. (This of course if one views Belgium as a separate cultural entity very different from Netherlands. If however one views Belgium under the French/Flemish cultural division, then it’s hard to get worked up by significant cultural differences between Flanders and Netherlands… From this perspective it’s absolutely natural for a Flemish kid to feel Dutch, rendering Belgians vs Dutch arguments moot.)
Well acceptance is your choise. But it will help to view a point from the perspective of in this case Max.
In my point of view from a dutch perspective he spoke his normal opinion. And we like that people are saying there opinion. It’s just a cultural difference.
What i didn’t liked was his swearing.
Coincidentally the first few paragraphs of today’s obituary of Dutch footballer Johan Cruyff describes the World Cup final of 1974, with the Dutch team playing Germany. It continues ‘..exposed the flaw in the temperament of both Cruyff and his side – arrogance’, and ‘Cruyff, as happened when things went against him, became argumentative and was booked in the tunnel at half-time’.
Oh, so he’s indeed dead? I saw one ‘RIP Johann Cruyff’ from a FB contact and wondered if it’s indeed happened.
Dear Lord, chill, man … calm down.
I think regardless of Max having arrogance or not, he said that during a race. He’s not the first one and certainly won’t be the last one make comments of that kind on the team radio, we’ve heard the “GP2 engines” (which is obviously ofenssive to the engineers) and “don’t shout there fucker”, and of course at this point you can’t compare Max to Fernando or Kimi, but the thing is the amount of stress levels they’re dealing with in those circumstances doesn’t allow them to pick the words more consciously, they’re trying to concetrate in the race not in coming out as polite. I’m not defending him, I actually don’t quite like him much, but if were going to label someone as arrogant we may as well consider their behavior in not so critical or stressful circumstances.