50 responses to “#F1 Daily News and Comment: Monday 29th September 2014”

1. Ultimately, when a team has built a dominant car the best method of publicity is to let the young warriors fight – irrespective of good or ill fortune.

   Which, despite all that has been written here, is to a great extent what Mercedes have done this season.

   They might not be the least inept management team on the planet, but for me, their failures have been in poor race management, not race fixing.
   (I reserve judgment on the Monza thing. I don’t dismiss the ‘sources’ out of hand, but neither do I assume it proved.)

   • @Nigel
     I tend to agree with you. After a week of holiday – in which I just lurked this site, I think it’s incompetence not fixing.

     Monza was Nico’s decision – to try to avoid nasty radio messages and to get it over with. So to me no real conspiracy but merely his interpretation of ‘giving back a win’. Consistent with the sources and the sheer incompetence at Brackley.

     Extra illustration: I have a friend who gets angry in traffic because of aggressive behaviour. In most cases it turns out to be an elderly person with his nose on the steeringwheel: incompetence, not intent.

2. Re Handbags at RBR

   I think the good atmosphere between Ric and Seb at the moment has a lot to do with the fact they’re not fighting for the title this year. Lewis and Nico were best buddies last year. Look what happened now…

   • …..Indeed, but were the Mercedes management more experienced – with 20 odd years of ‘been there seen that’ – both drivers would have been warned early season – ‘do x,y,z’ and you sit out a race.

     Now it appears every team meeting including the management and the drivers is now some emo ridden desperate attempt to present a united front to the world.

     • I think everyone can agree, that at times the management team has been inept, but for me, i’m somewhat happy Ross is no longer in charge. I feel if he was still in charge, the racing would not be as intense as it is between the Lewis and Nico. With Ross and coupled with the Mercs dominance, we could have been subjected to watching boring processional racing at the front of the grid and instead we’d still be arguing about the noise of the cars.

       So if i was to give them a score out of 10, they’d get a 8.

   • a lot to do with the fact they’re not fighting for the title this year.

     That, and the fact that Vettel has nothing to prove.
     If he didn’t have four championships under his belt, I suspect there would be a great deal more tension even though this year’s championship isn’t at issue.

3. I know there are Vettel detractors and I’m neither a hater nor a fanboy but there was some schadenfreude when he whined that his car was no good during testing and then in Melbourne. But through the year, he has either resigned to the fact that this years car is so different that he is unable to get anywhere close to peak performance or is putting on a very brave PR tactic. Either way, he seems to have piped down and admitting as much in his recent interviews. A good deal of respect for that, no matter what his motivations for doing so are.

   • He realises that he has won 4 titles in a row, yes of of course he will want to win at every opportunity, but a year where he is not challenging for the world title will not/should not have a massive effect. It’s when a driver has a string of years not challenging for the title, is when you start to see frustration creeping in and will be interesting to see how he handles that should he be in that situation.

     Right now he can take comfort in the fact that the chassis they have is as good, if not better than Merc’s. It’s only the engine letting them down, and despite that, they are still second fastest. He hasn’t had a car in a top team that is fighting for mid field places as of yet, and that is when we will see a test of character and if he can pull out of that phase stronger. Of course, there will be points when he can no longer hide his frustration if he is ever in a situation where the team is consistently fighting in the midfield. But, yes he has handled it well so far, but to be honest, it’s to be expected for the reasons mention above

4. so the cars are way too easy to drive yet at the same time so complex to drive that drivers need to be coached by their engineers via radio on what to do?
   could it be that the difficulty of driving an f1 car is just different to what it was in the 1980’s? after all, driving any car has become less physically demanding than twenty, thirty or forty years ago. such is the way of progress. that doesn’t mean that driving in f1 isn’t a challenge, it just means the challenge is different.
   and could it be that the increasing lack of interest in f1 has more to do with pay walls, exorbitant ticket prices and on top of that, everybody involved in f1 constantly downtalking their own product? first everybody complained about lack of overtakes, than about artificial overtakes, than lack of noise and now it’s that supposedly five year olds could drive todays cars. and then of course there is the sanitization of f1. well guess what, that’s just a fancy word for saying people are not dying horrible deaths anymore. say it like that, and see how stupid your complaint is.

   you can’t artificially recreate the mystique drivers possessed in years gone by. it’s a different era, characterized by demystification. just like f1 drivers aren’t heros anymore, famous actors and singers aren’t stars anymore, they are celebreties whose nudes pictures get leaked and whose every step we can follow on twitter and reality tv. back then, there was just less information available, and that is what created the mystique. it had nothing to do with how hard the cars were to drive or how glamorous the entertainment industry used to be, it was the lack of information that left room for imagination. we live in the information age now, and if you tried going back to how things were, things won’t be more exciting, they will be out of date. what f1 need to do is embrace the new possibilities, not try and go back to the 80’s. they need to understand that good pr doesn’t consist of boring press conferences, that they need to become more accessible and that they need to stop talking bad about their own product.

   • I was just about to write a comment in relation to that article and then i saw yours, and i’d have to agree with everything you’ve said, well said.

   • There is quite a lot wrong with this comment…

     “so the cars are way too easy to drive yet at the same time so complex to drive that drivers need to be coached by their engineers via radio on what to do?” – anijs

     I can’t tell if you are being deliberately disingenuous, or are simply naive to the differences in “easy to drive” and “too complex” accusations. Both can, and in my opinion, are true. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume naivety.

     These accusations of F1 being too “easy” and too “complex” are not referring to the same phenomena in driving / operating a race car.

     When one is racing a car, there are many skills and instincts needed, many of which can be honed and developed. Throttle control, feel, courage, timing, coordination, focus, coping with fear and pressure, brake modulation, feeling lateral and longitudinal grip, shifting dynamic weight, racing awareness and managing slip / traction levels.

     Basically a driver is supposed to be racing the car on the ragged edge, in the main, and the driver should actually be “driving” the car. These skills are what “driving” and racing is about and this is why it is called a world DRIVERS championship. They have to drive the car.

     Now admitedly there has always been peripheral in car technical assistance, and certainly over the last 30 years. Historically these factors have supported the driver, but not overtly undermined the drivers impact. The systems were not so complex that they were anymore than a few settings to enhance balance or mapping or fuel management or turbo psi the like.

     Now the systems are so complex that it’s button pushing, delta driving, and lemans style mini endurance preservation dominates most of the race. Rarely are the car being pushed and therefore so to the drivers. Additionally the cars have such poor tyres and mech grip that race sims are best performed under delta driving scenarios, which means the cars are “easier” and “slower” to drive BUT also more “complex” to operate correctly – though not in a driving sense.

     This the DRIVERS championship has become about who is the best systems operator and car performance manager and not who is the best driver. In fact, if it were, I think Hamilton would be comfortably beating Rosberg. Unlike the past, now the predominant factor is no longer testing the cars and therefore the drivers on the limit, for the majority of the race, over a whole championship.

     I hope that helped.

     • you obviously didn’t read the sentence that followed, or didn’t understand my argument. the cars may be easier to drive in terms of physical strength, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a challenge to drive them. the challenge just has evolved and is now different. i’m pretty sure driving a car in the fangio era was different from driving a car in the early 90’s, yet that doesn’t mean that both didn’t challenge their drivers and required skills to control them. the same is true for todays cars. f1 has always been what the rules and technology available at the time made it. it’s pretty ironic that in a sport that always considered itself as being at the cutting edge of modern technology has so many fans looking at the past with rose tinted glasses.

       • Perhaps I didn’t understand it. I’ll read more thoroughly next time.

         My perspective is simply based on wanting to see a sport that tests drivers, as an ex-racer myself. I won’t repeat my previous comment.

     • So would going back to the “Best X results out of Y races” help? At least then the retirements wouldn’t be as devastating to HAM or ROS as they are now. Also, it would likely lessen the conspiracy theories, as Mercedes would really have to work hard to kneecap one of their drivers then.

       Certain DNF’s are simply out of any driver’s control, so shouldn’t be overly detrimental to them in the drivers’ championship.

       • Interesting point about the points system… I’m 50/50 on it… There are benefits…

         • It was a stupid idea when they last had it in F1.

           And it’s a stupid idea now ….

           It’s totally artificial – whereas now you score the points you score.

           Regardless of reliability or accidents or penalties.

         • “Whereas now you score the points you score” – Manky

           No Manky, now you score the points you score AND double for 1 single round at a shit track like Abu Dhabi… WTF?!

           There’s merit to the old system, mainly in high reliability failure environments, but I don’t think I’d support it’s return. Reliability isn’t bad enough to be the predominant factor in a 20 race championship to decide it in most cases. It’s reasonably equal.

           But if I HAD to choose that “drop a worst round” or “double points”, I’d rather the “drop a worst round” system. Double points is pointless (excuse the pun).

         • @ SIS

           this year is an aberration – hopefully ?

           I agree double points are a stupid idea –

           but still not as stupid as ” dropping ” points / races

           So I’m against BOTH

           Leave the system alone – you score what you score – no artificial meddling ….

5. Also, I’d like to know exactly how cars this year are easier to drive. Is it that they’re slower in the corners or you can’t push them to the limits and hence easier or there is a lack of downforce and hence you can’t really go very fast or what ?

   • They are an easier “driving challenge” but are more “complex” to operate…

     See my comment above for more description on the differences…

6. “Webber’s relationship with Vettel began in 2007, when an inexperienced Sebastian clattered into the back of his car during a safety car period”

   I always, sort of, kind of felt that Hamilton was to blame for that accident. His behavior under the SC in heavy rain was fishy at best, and the way he slowed to almost a complete halt was very strange (and confusing for those behind him). Judge?

   • The initial 10 place grid penalty charged to Vettel was changed to a reprimand when the additional video of Hamilton’s erratic driving came to light. FIA investigated Hamilton but no action was taken. Memorable was Webber’s comment “it’s the f-ing kids” and Vettel sobbing in the garage.

   • Webber said as much himself in the presser at the next race.
     “It definitely contributed to Sebastian hitting me up the back because he (Hamilton) wasn’t doing what he was supposed to be doing (behind the safety car), clearly,” (from official F1 website). Vettel was penalized for that one though. The tensions with Vettel and Webber I feel started in Turkey 09 when the team didnt move Webber out of his way after he had slipped up on lap 1 allowing Button to slip past and sail into the distance. Kind of a reversal of what happened in the Singapore race.

7. The speed of a F1 car is governed by 3 things: Horsepower (particular HP/Weight ratio), Aero and Tyres.

   At the moment, aero is still the dominant factor and this is shown by how close the cars were at Singapore qualifying, which is the longest and ‘most difficult’ track of the season. The cars have also got much heavier but now lack enough HP to make up for it. Heck, even the V8’s never looked feisty once we moved to no refueling and heavy tanks. We also now have low grip tyres and a lot of aero; it’s no surprise that a 16 year old can jump into a car and be expected to be competitive.

   Ideally we need:
   -Faster and wider tyres (at least 2 seconds faster than what we currently have). Low grip tyres don’t do the spectacle any favours.
   -More horsepower. The engine regulations will make this virtually impossible but ideally we need at least another 100-150 horsepower given how heavy the cars are. Torque is great but if you want the drivers to ‘fight’ the cars, you need more power.
   -Less aero.

   • Spot on Anil! Bigger tyres, smaller wings and more HP… Problem solved

   • Yes, don’t forget the turbos are barely dialed up to 1. With luck, teams will be allowed more latitude to turn them up as the regulations progress.

   • Development will take car of power (and its counterpart, weight). We are, after all, at the start of effectively a new formula.

     Otherwise, agreed.
     Addressing aero would make the cars (slightly) more road relevant.
     Obviously that doesn’t apply to fatter tyres, but is it not possible to make them both grippier and more durable anyway ? I had the impression that they are being artificially limited in order to help the racing. Sorting out the aero would remove the need for that.

     And all those genius aerodynamicists can get back to something socially useful.
     Like designing boats…
     🙂

     • “Addressing aero would make the cars (slightly) more road relevant.”

       This is a pet hate, if I want road relevant I’ll look to Touring Cars, not the absolute pinnacle of motorsport. ABS and traction control weren’t developed to aid road cars, they were developed because they offered a performance advantage thanks to some freedom in regulations, and having regulations with virtually no freedom (even aero rules are tight now) means there is little trickle down effect.

       It’s not aero that makes F1 un-road relevant, it’s rules which say standardised electronics and little or no innovation with regards suspension are permitted that are areas that need addressing.

       The big innovations in F1 in recent years?
       Blown floors – Banned
       DRS (F-Duct) – Legalised
       FRIC – Banned
       Ride Height control – Banned
       K/ERS – Legalised

       It’s hardly a big list, which I feel really sums up the problem with the sport from a technological advancement perspective. It’s really disappointing that we have Williams Hybrid Performance out there and whilst their kit has been used by Audi to help win Le Mans, it’s not applicable to F1s tight rules.

       Would I like more flexible rules in F1? Heck yes, that would keep the great innovators of the sport like Newey in play. Do I care if it’s road relevant? Not a jot.

       • @ Paul

         ” … ABS and traction control weren’t developed to aid road cars … ”

         Of course not ….

         That’s why BOSCH installed them in TRUCKS

         because of the performance advantage they offered on the public highway ….. not for safety

         Possibly a short course in automotive history would help you.

         P.S. – FRIC and ride hight control as well as active suspension were developed by Lotus ROAD car division

         —

         Pretty much everything outside of aero was developed for road cars and then copied and adapted into F1

         So I don’t think your agruement holds much water ….

         • Welocome back Manky, it has been a while 😉

         • Actually you’re wrong on several points. ABS was developed by the aerospace industry for use in aircraft. The Lotus active suspension program came from research that Lotus had done during their ground-effect days and was initially developed for F1 and was originally tested by Mansell and scrapped. It was then modified and fitted to a road car. Most development for F1 comes from the aerospace industry – carbon fibre, aero tools, drive – by wire, etc.

         • https://stillisurprise.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/image30.jpg

   • Good comment. There are other factors also, for example the track (width at the wheels) of the cars was narrowed some time ago; this contributes to lower cornering speeds.

     It’s pretty interesting to view some of the early 90’s in car camera stuff; the cars were a handful and more difficult to drive (physically). I liken the cars now to flying; the pilots of commercial aircraft have computers to pretty much fly the planes, but have to remember to push the right buttons. The aircraft is more complex and harder to fly in one sense, but easier to fly in another. F1 seems a bit like that now.

     • The cars were narrowed for the 1998 season in tune with the grooved tyres that the drivers hated..

8. At least JEV has several weeks to impress a potential employer with his racing feats. Sebastian Buemi and Jaime Alguersuari were dumped without any time of reaction.

9. But why is Japan so important to McLaren that it may “affect the future of the team”?

   Not quite what Button said:
   “It is a shame, especially for the future of this team..”

   Honda is the future for McLaren, and naturally it’s going to be a shame for them if their new partner to be struggles in their backyard.
   All I read into it was Button being apologetic in advance.

   Part of the tendency to over-analyse/dramatise every comment from those involved in F1 ?

10. I think people are a bit harsh on the Merc Twitter account, they get so much grief it’s unreal. I guess some of it is to be expected given what happened at Monaco/Monza and now the first ‘contaminant’ I can genuinely remember in F1 since the white powder and Stepney.

    Even so, the chances are the person behind the account is a simple dogsbody, paid £20k p/a and by and large tweeting whatever the Wolf demands. I have some sympathy with them, I really do.

11. “Tweeting it wrong”

    Though Mercedes’ PR department may be ruing it currently, the fact of the matter is the current drama is all that stands between the fans and possibly one of the most boring seasons ever imaginable, and eventually they will reap the benefits.

    I’d like to know which contributor holds that opinion. I for one have enjoyed the season and the racing, aside from the Mercedes Drama.

    Many of the races have had enjoyable moments not related to the Stuttgart concern.

    I’ve been re-watching many classic races recently; Christ some of them are boring as hell. Races when the only time there is any moving around of the field is the 1 or 2 Pit Stops. (For reference I’m speaking more ’00-’08)

    Whether its an increase in the editing or overtaking, I have found this season compelling; and all my F1 watching friends agree. I believe this season has benefited enormously with the changes to the formula and regulations this year.

    I don’t agree with all the changes of course, I’m not a sycophant.

    • I agree. Its a 2 way battle for the title, what more do you want? A few more head to head battles but what else? It beats someone (like Vettel or Button) running away with it any day of the week.

      And I’d like to add that I really wonder how far they can develop these cars and engines. I mean the performance (especially Merc) they can already extract out of these engines…

    • @aiden

      I echo your sentiments on this being a very enjoyable season. Heck my barber is watching F1 and he hasn’t got the slightest clue about anything relating to sports, but he’s front and centre on a Sunday watching the races

      • Not sure that’ll be the case at 5:45 GMT this Sunday.

        Anyone know any reasons why it isn’t scheduled later in the day local time?

    • Think Ferrari Schumacher. Had it gone to plan WDC would have been done about now. Fortunately, drama.

      • Yeah but Matt, it’s not all about WDC. There are battles all through the field. When

        • Spanners, meant for WDC, natch, but try this on. There goes Vettel, he’s out of DRS. Rinse and repeat. Regardless of your feelings about him, Vettel driving away from the field repeatedly didn’t give people much to tune in for. And RB didn’t have near the advantage that Merc do. The same was true for Shumacher at the height of his dominance.

12. I must agree with Aiden. I have enjoyed the racing a lot this year. I’m baffled that this season Could be described as boring.

    • Thanks Spanners.

      Loving your part in the podcast.

      Do you happen to know which contributor feels that way? To ask questions, not to berate and stir the pot.

13. “Of course it could be mere coincidence that these two ‘grandees’ have suffered some of their worst form in a generation – it could be that the people in charge of aero really don’t have a clue – but could it simply be that the Toyota facility has a reputation that has been unjustly earnt.”

    And for the fun of it, Caterham is now going down the Toyota way (or at least so they say):
    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116084
    “Although not finishing in the top 10 of the constructors’ championship would be a blow to Caterham, Ravetto insists the team’s future does not depend upon it.

    He said progress is already well underway on its 2015 car – which is being worked on in the windtunnel at Toyota’s Cologne facility.”

    At least that little is true: Whether they get 10th place or not, Caterham is waving while drowning.

14. After watching Ted’s notebook immediately after quali it appeared Singapore had a small hurricane. With all that moisture in the air it seemed plausible to me that the foreign substance could of been just plain ol water in the electronics. But that wouldn’t be approved by the PR department. They want clickbait they want us gnashing our teeth digging into what foreign substance could be.

15. I’m having great trouble understanding how an apologist for Formula E can point out what he sees are the weaknesses in Formula 1 presently.

    Faster and wider tyres.
    More horsepower.
    Less aero.

    Yeah, right………next he’ll be claiming that F 1 cars are physically too easy to drive, oh wait…..top of the pops on J A on F1 today. Whale-oil-beef-oct.

16. TJ13 comment:” So the promised $50m investment from Vijay – made to years ago – and a wind tunnel for the Silverstone team is now finally revealed to be a fantasy.”

    Whilst there is an obvious element of truth to the missing 50m, this, combined with rather challenging circumstances of the main shareholders the main issue has been the shifting sands of WT use. The cost of a new tunnel is 20m+ and if the use is reduced almost on a whim of the rule makers as it recently was, you could be left with a rather expensive white elephant. This combined with increasing reliance on CFD – FI recently upgraded as you recently reported- may mean it’s far better to rent at least in the short term. Fi have used their own c/w Maclarens, latterly Toyota’s. Either way a lot of WT work is just validating CFD research.

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